God does not force us to accept Him. He created man with a free will. Think of it this way, if you were God and wanted to be worshipped, what would you rather be worshipped by? Some robots that have no choice but to obey you, or someone who worships you because s/he wants to?
For God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (Forgot the reference.)
In this life, God will honor your choice if you reject Him.
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3 comments:
Confusion surrounds the free will issue only when free will is a fact. Surely man does have 'will'. And we read of God's will in scriptures also. I guess the question is then, 'Is mans will bigger than Gods will?'. Can our will thwart the will of God? Scipture surely teaches that man has a 'choice' and a 'will', but in no way does it say that this choice or will is 'free'. The concept of free will is engulfed into the minds of most Christians that it has become a 'fact' to them. A fact that they do not question. But if we question it, we find answers to many truths in scripture. If you would like I can supply scriptures for you. Bless you.
Joe
That's very interesting. I see your point and yes I would like to see some scriptures on that.
Sorry it took so long to get back to this. To search out scriptures that demote the "free will" of man will take some time. But I will post a letter to a gentleman that I had a "free will" conversation with. I had asked this man, "Who heardened Pharaoh's heart to not let the Israelites go?".
I told him that it all started here....
Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
Then I told him to read these verses…Exo 7:3, 14:4, 14:17, 7:13-14, 7:22, 9:12, 9:35, 10:1, 10:20, 10:27, 11:10, 14:8
Not only this, but I asked him who hardened the heart of ALL OF THE EGYPTIANS to follow after the Israelites?
Exo 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honor upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.
To which the gentleman replied as followed.
God did indeed harden Pharaoh's heart. but Pharaoh's free will was not violated. He contributed to the point of sinning:
Exo 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
Exo 8:32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.
Exo 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
God is no rapist. He does not act against our free will.
And this is my reply to the gentleman. This is a hard concept to grasp at times. So a long explanation may merit some understanding. Please keep in mind that this is not directed towards you while you are reading it. Thank you.
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L____….
You almost had it right. It is interesting that you throw in this about the Pharaoh….”He contributed to the point of sinning”. Tell me L____, are we to expect that the Pharaoh wouldn’t sin? Do you have a different definition of a “sinner” than I do? What does a sinner do? That’s right…..He sins. And who does the bible say is a sinner? Well EVERYBODY!!! I am a sinner, and I assume you know you are a sinner too. Well wouldn’t you think an All-Knowing God would know that we both (and Pharaoh) are sinners? Yes! Now just think of what God can do with a world of sinners. Do you think that God can use this to his advantage, or to control it to accomplish HIS will. Now, have I ever said that man does not have a will? No! But is it a free will? NO, because what does a sinner “will” to do? Of course a sinner always “WILLS” to do sin. Again, think about what God can do with that. He can manipulate, twist situations, and so forth. So when the Pharaoh thinks he is doing something of his own “free will”, he is actually doing the will of God. The Pharaoh’s will is NOT outside the manipulation of God, therefore the Pharaoh’s will is not “free”. I don’t think you are understanding what I am talking about. Concerning the Pharaoh, before all the scripture that I quoted you, and you quoted me, I told you to read Romans 9:17 which again says….
For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth…..
So tell me L____, “raised thee up” since when?? Since 5 years ago, or maybe 20 years ago? No, since BIRTH. I can see why you think the Pharaoh hardened his own heart. But God raised Pharaoh up in a manner that would cause Pharaoh to do such a thing. So once again, who REALLY hardened Pharaoh’s heart? God did! And for what purpose? For this purpose ….. “that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth”……So what pray tell does Pharaoh’s “free will”, or for that matter, his “unfree will”, have to do with it? Absolutely nothing, except to accomplish the will of God. So if God can bend and manipulate the will of a man to accomplish His All-Encompassing Will, then that man’s will is far from free. To call God a rapist to do such a thing only assumes that God rapes people. But if I said “If a man is standing between railroad tracks to commit suicide, and God caused a strong wind to push him off the tracks, against the man’s free will, to save his life, would you say God raped him of his suicide?” Your own rapist analogy would say, YES! Well guess what, my analogy on this same event would be the same as yours. Yes! He is raping this man of what he wants to do. Well what does the Lord Jesus say about mans doings?
Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
So tell me the truth, do the men L____ and Joe really know what they are doing with their wills? Christ said we don’t, so are we to believe Christ? No we don’t, we are sinners, we will never know what we are doing. So when scriptures say that we are to have a “new mind”, what do you think happens to the “old mind” that thinks it has some supposed free will? Well it DIES! Does it want to die? NO, it dies daily AGAINST ITS WILL. And what kills it? The new mind kills it. Believe me when I say, it is actually the plan of God (He is so smart to do this) to have man THINK he has a free will, so that when it dies
“they shall know that I am the Lord”.
This goes all the way back to the garden when the serpent said
“ye shall be as gods”.
So what is one of the qualities of a god. Well here is what our God says about Himself,
“Eph 1:11 …..who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:”.
Now what does man’s supposed “free will” say,
“I work and do things, whether good or bad, by my own free will”.
Does this not sound like the same way God is saying it. Seriously, could this “free will” be a god. Lets see. We both know that, if we are in Christ, we are the temple of God.
“1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple …..”.
And we know there was a physical temple, and we know that this building was modeled off of the tabernacle. Now what did the tabernacle have in the Holy of Holies behind the veil? The mercy seat which is the Throne of God. Now who sat on that throne? God did. When the pillar of smoke or of fire moved, the tabernacle and ALL OF ISRAEL moved with it, by God’s decision, not Israel’s. Now what pray tell is controlling the movement of the WHOLE BODY OF ISRAEL? God is!
Now back to you being the temple of God. Who THINKS it is controlling the movements and outcomes of your doings? Well your free will of course! So, if your free will does indeed have control of your doings, decisions, and outcomes, WHERE must it be SITTING? You guessed it, ON THE THRONE. I hope this shows you how paramount of a problem this free will stuff is. This thing (free will) sits on a throne thinking it has its own free control of something. Now, again, WHERE is it sitting? On the throne of God. So what do we call this free will thing? Well he is
“Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. (2Th 2:4)”
And how does he show he is god? By sitting on God’s throne! If you think you have control of something L____, you MUST be sitting in the place that controls what YOU do then. Get off of God’s throne! Let Him sit there with HIS will and HIS mind calling the shots. But this, of course, cannot happen when you are sitting there. So what is God to do if you don’t move? He will kill you, and make you a new creature as a new temple (a new tabernacle, with a new mind, with a new throne) for Him to sit in.
Goodness L____, don’t you know that this is how much God loves you. Look at all that He is going to do for you L____, and all because He loves you. For God to deny you, just little old you L____, would deprive Him of being ALL IN ALL. This is why NOBODY is going to have their legs broken to force them to bow to Christ. They are going to bow because they will have HIS mind, and be HIS body, and have HIS SPIRIT. There is only ONE LIFE in the whole of creation L____, and that LIFE is GOD’S, and He has control of HIS LIFE. His life does NOT have control of Him.
Most of Chistianity believes that if MAN, of his own free will, chooses Christ, he will be saved. But the Savior said
“Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,…..”.
So tell me L____, who you gonna believe, most of Christendom, or your Savior Jesus? Most of Christianity also believes that if MAN, of his own free will, will come and follow Christ, then he will be saved. But here we have our Savior again saying this,
“Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:……” (this word draw here is in a very strong sense, it should be translated “drag”, like dragging kicking and screaming).
So who are you gonna believe again? Here are some scriptures to think about while you and I are thinking about “free will”.
Mar 14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written (Zec 13:7), I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
Mar 14:28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.
Mar 14:29 But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.
This was written back in Zec 13:7 centuries before hand (it MUST come about). Now here is Jesus telling Peter that he WILL be offended. Of course Peter's "free will" (that he thinks he has) says he will not be offended. I am sure that Peter was sincere with his decision. But we all know Peter was offended and denied Jesus three times.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
God works these things in people, the people have no control over it.
Jas 4:13 Go to now, ye that say, Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
Jas 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
Jas 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works [not anything WE do], but of him [God] that calleth;)
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
God predestines according to his purpose of HIS will not our choices. He "worketh ALL things", including our wills.
Pro 20:24 Man's goings [Heb: steps] are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
But man thinks he understands his own way. Look at what else God does....
“The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.” (Prov. 16:1).
Surely man has control to plan his own way, good or bad. No, God does that too.
Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
If we are created by the hands of God, then he controls everything we do.....
Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Not where the king' heart wills to go. Can Jesus himself do anyting of his own free will?
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
After his glorification, he now has power of the very will of the Father. So now we can do nothing without Jesus. (Remember, everything the Father had, He gave to his Son.)
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Here is Pilate's free will speaking.
John 19:10 "Then said Pilate unto Him, Speak you not unto me? Know you not that I HAVE POWER to crucify you, and have POWER TO RELEASE YOU?
But where did this power really come from?
Jesus answered, You could have NO POWER AT ALL against Me, except it were GIVEN YOU from above…" (John 19:11).
Can we really do good, of our own selves?
Jer 13:23 "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."
Im sure Peter thought he chose to not deny Jesus when he heard this.
"Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, YOU SHALL DENY ME thrice" (Ver. 34).
But what did Peter do?...
"Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I KNOW NOT THE MAN. And immediately the cock crew… And he went out, and wept bitterly" (Matt. 26:74 & 75b). Free will? Where?
Now here is something very VERY interesting. There is, in the Scriptures, an example where God tells us that He uses people to do His will, but that the one being used doesn’t even know it, but rather thinks that he himself is doing the choosing and making the decisions and carrying out the intentions of his heart all according to his own presumed "free will", whereas God says that it is He, and not the person being used, Who is in total control of the one being used.
The bible continues to show truth, and the Truth is saying that THIS is what people want (notice all the my's, me's, I's, etc.):
Isa 10:13-14
......By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by the wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man: And my hand has found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathers eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.
We can plug in what ever we want here, like ...It is because of what I have done I am saved.)
What else can Truth continue to say, but that THIS is what God does with what people Want:
Isa 10:10-12
As my hand has found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria; Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols? Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord has performed His whole work [at the hands of the Assyrians] upon Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria and the glory of his high looks (vs 13-14) .
Because THIS is what the Truth of an all Soverign God says:
Isa 10:15 Shall the ax [king of Assyria] boast itself [ I, Me, My] against him that hews therewith [God]? Or shall the saw [king of Assyria] magnify itself against Him that saws with it [God] as if the rod [king of Assyria] should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff [king of Assyria] should lift up itself, as if it were no wood
This wood, ax, etc., thinks it is something with free will and the power of self-determinism. Once again the King of Assyria doesnt even believe in the God of Israel, so surely he took the spoils from Israel and tread them down of his own "free will". Did he?
Isaiah 10:5-8
“O Assyrian, the rod of Mine anger, and the staff in their hand is Mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of My wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. Howbeit HE means not so, neither does HIS heart [his ‘obscured’ heart—Ecc. 3:11] think so; but it is in HIS heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few. For he says, Are not MY princes altogether kings?
Surely this Assyrian is wicked, but does the "free will" of a certain man cause himself to be wicked? No, God does that too.
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Even man's "free will" to do evil is in control of God...
Gen 50:19-20 “And Joseph said unto them [his brothers], Fear not: for am I in the place of God? But as for you, you thought evil against me, but God meant it unto good,....
Meant what unto good? The evil that they thought....thats what. And what was its purpose....
to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.”
What happens to a prophet who is deceived?
Eze 14:9....I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
Well thats understandable, but who deceived the prophet, Satan or the Devil?
Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
Did the ones against Jesus choose to be against him of their own free will? Or did the Father determine it this way?
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Man thinks his plans are of his own mind and heart, but who's plan really prevails?
Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.
It is the flesh of man that says he has a "free will", how does flesh and Spirit get along?
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Do we repent of our own selves, or is our repentance given to us?
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
Man must realize that God is Soveriegn, which means He has Control of EVERYTHING, even our own wills. Man cannot choose to save himself. Salvation has already been bought since the foundation of the world.
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If you have any questions let me know. Thank you and May God bless.
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